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(Music) The Thieves Guild

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by Jake Kerr.

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Episode 100,

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Celebration.

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Hi, everyone. I'm George Turner, your narrator for
the Thieves Guild.

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Welcome to episode 100.

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This week, we will be celebrating our 100th
episode with something different,

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an interview with our esteemed author, Jake Kerr.

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Thanks for joining us, Jake.

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I'm really happy to be here, George. Um, thanks
for having me.

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And b- by the way, everybody,

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George Turner, the amazing narrator of the Thieves
Guild.

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What an amazing job you do.

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Thank you. I'm quite enjoying it, which is why I'm
so happy we've gotten

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to 100 episodes, which reminds me, this is about

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you. So let's begin, shall we?

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So how do you feel reaching 100 episodes?

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This has been a real labor of love. Um,

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obviously, it started out as a, uh, book series,
and

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turning it into a podcast was something I've, uh,
thought about and, uh,

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decided, like, "Hey, let's do it." So getting to
100 episodes is crazy.

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Didn't even

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think I'd get to 20 because of, uh, you know, who
would want to listen or

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how do I get the podcast out there. So, uh, very,
very happy.

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Tell me a little bit about yourself and your
background as a writer.

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Yeah, sure. I, um, I started... Well,

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to be honest, um, I started writing wh- (laughs)
in my head when I

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was really little. I, uh, I always was, uh,
creating

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stories in my head. I'd be going to church on
Sunday, and, uh,

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would, uh, just essentially

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create scenes about the church with superheroes
coming in and bad guys

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robbing, uh, everything. And, and, it's just t-
to, to pass the time,

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I was creating stories in my head, and I did that
when I was at school and when I was at home.

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And, and really, I've been a storyteller, uh, to
myself, uh,

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my whole life. But I really started writing

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in the, uh, probably right around 2000.

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A good friend of mine, um, had a, uh,

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bestselling book and I wrote her and said,
"Congratulations." And she was like, "Hey, you
know,

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you're not writing. Why?" And I said, "Well, ever
since I graduated college, I didn't really think I
was

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very good at it." And, uh, and she recommended
that I, uh, start writing,

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and she was very enthusiastic, and I appreciated
that.

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So I started writing in 2000,

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and, uh, I had no idea what to do, so I just
started...

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I joined the, uh, the Writers Garret in Dallas,
which is a, a writer's group, and we

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just did writing exercises constantly.

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For years, I, I would, uh, write, you know, a
scene of dialogue only and no

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description, a scene description only with no
dialogue.

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So really, I just, uh, started writing in that
way.

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And then, uh, one of the members said, "Hey,
you're, you're really good.

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Why don't you join, uh, this writer's conference
called Viable Paradise?" Which I had

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never heard of, and I was like, "Uh, okay, that
sounds fun. A, a week in Martha's Vineyard?

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You don't have to convince me twice." So I went
there, and, uh, that's where I learned

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about,

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you know, uh, submitting t- um, to magazines and
things like that.

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So, um,

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I wrote a story, and, uh, got a very nice
rejection, and the person said, "Hey, this

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isn't really a science fiction story. You're
submitting it to a science fiction magazine.

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It has science fiction in it, but it's not really
that important.

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You need to write a science fiction story." So I
wrote a story called The Old Equations and sent

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it off to, uh, a couple of magazines, and
Lightspeed Magazine, uh,

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bought it, and it subsequently was nominated for
the, uh, Sturgeon Award, uh, which is a

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juried prize from the University of Kansas, and
the, uh, and the Nebula Award,

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which is, uh, the award given by the Science
Fiction Writers of America.

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And, uh, that kind of pushed me into a bit of a
spotlight, and I've been publishing short

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stories and, and then started on writing novels
ever since then.

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So

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it's, it's kind of like a, uh, a journey of a slow
start,

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and, uh, and, and then a, as I got older, uh, a, a
quick

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launch (laughs) , and, and then, uh, some pretty
significant, uh, success

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after a lot of writing exercises.

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You mentioned being nominated for a Nebula Award.

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What was that like?

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It was, uh, it was interesting because I, I knew
it was a good story.

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The editor, John Joseph Adams, um,

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uh, really was supportive, and, uh, I put a lot of
work into it.

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I put a lot of work into the story.

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And, um,

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and I thought it was good. I, I didn't know if it
was award-worthy. I had hopes.

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Uh, once I got nominated, really nothing changes
so much as,

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uh, doors open. You have that kind of credibility
of having been

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nominated for a Nebula Award. But even then, in,
in the writing community,

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uh, while doors open, uh, they don't mean you,
you're gonna get published everywhere.

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It's still kind of a struggle to write, uh, a
great story.

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Uh, but really, the biggest change was I, I think
that, uh, I, I was taken seriously

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at, at more places.

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And, uh, that has a, a real benefit.

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And this was for your first published story.

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That's actually true.

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Uh, and I will go further and say,

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um, post 18 Years Old,

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uh, it wasn't the first story I've written.

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Uh, I wrote stories in college. Um,

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but it was the

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first story...That got published from me, yeah.

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Uh, I'm trying to, like, position it for you so
you can get a sense of like how much of a rookie
(laughs) I

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actually was, even though I was, uh, in my for-
like, uh, around 40 years old.

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Um, basically,

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I came out of Viable Paradise having never written
a story since college

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and I wrote a story at Viable Paradise that I,
that I polished up and I sent out, and that's the

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one that came back and they said, "Hey, this is a
good story but it's not science fiction." And that
was a

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personal rejection that I value to this day.

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Uh, so The Old Equations was actually my second
story I wrote as an

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adult,

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wrote, and my first published story, and that was
the one that got nominated for a

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Nebula. Now that sounds kind of arrogant and, and,
uh, even though it's true, the, the

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reality though is, and I, and I think people miss
this, that I had spent the previous 20

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years

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more or less

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writing constantly. Writing essays, writing

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writing exercises, and, and I like to tell people
this, like, my first published story was nominated
for a

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Nebula Award but I had written a million words,

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literally written a million words before I even
had a story published. So, there's that.

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(laughs)

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You mentioned the Thieves Guild didn't start out
as a podcast, but as a book

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series. What made you want to do it as a podcast,
and can you see

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publishing more books or will this be exclusively
a podcast moving

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forward?

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That's a good question. I, um, I really wanted,

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uh, to continue the series in book form and I
probably will, but it is gonna be primarily a

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podcast from here on out. And why did I choose to
do it as a podcast?

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Um,

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I loved the idea.

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It, it's meant to be a, uh, a serial. It's meant
to be one of these things that's

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consumed in small pieces. That's how I wrote it,
even though it was packaged as a book series

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and, and you can read them all in one sitting, but
it was really meant to be a chapter by chapter

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released type of thing. But there was really n- at
the time I wrote it, there wasn't really a, a, a,

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an outlet for serial fiction, uh, like that.

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Magazines wrote, produced stories or, or published
stories and there weren't really, uh,

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serial fiction outlets. So when podcasts starting
to be huge and

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the ability to create your own podcast was
becoming more and more accessible, I thought

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this would be really cool and I figured if I'm
gonna do it, let's do it whole hog.

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Let's do a full cast

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recording where people can be really immersed with
the idea that they're immersed

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for this, uh, you know, for a week or, or, or for
on a Monday

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and then on a Friday they get their next piece
and, and they can't wait. It's, uh...

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and that was kind of the idea behind it.

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Oh, and, uh, you asked about doing more.

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I, I can definitely see myself doing more,

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and in fact, toward the end of this episode, I'll
have a special announcement

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that, uh, is specifically about that. So look out
for that.

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You certainly like to torture us, don't you?

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Anyone who listens to the Thieves Guild

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and waits for the next episode knows that.

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(laughs)

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The story starts out with simple mischief among
two young friends and then

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gets progressively more complex. Was this your
intent?

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That, that's a great question, and actually the
reality is that I'm

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writing the whole thing completely by the seat of
my pants.

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Um, I started with that opening scene of Raylan
and Rafe,

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uh, tossing the thing and I had this idea of, of a

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Thieves Guild and, and how he would be made the
Thieves Guild master and

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I... So I had kind of like the ideas

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very, very rough ideas, but I didn't know where I
was gonna go, and that's part of the joy of
writing it.

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I wanted to just kind of like have fun

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writing it out along with, you know, as the
reader, the same way the reader is reading it

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is how I wanted to write it. It's challenging
because, uh, you know, continuity

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becomes an issue and things like that, uh, but
it's also a lot of fun.

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And one of the things that I... one of my goals
was much like Charles Dickens, you know, people
would wait

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for the Strand Magazine on, on, on, on docks as it
was unloaded from the

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ship, they were so interested in what the next
episode was.

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And you see this in some of the Pulp Fiction
magazines and, and the, uh, chapters of Conan and
things

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like that. The, the idea that a chapter,

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um,

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w- every chapter would end with a cliffhanger. I,
I kind of loved that idea.

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So just right up by the seat of my pants, end the
chapter with like, ooh, what comes next?

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And, uh, that not only would draw the listener,
listener in and the reader in, but it would

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also make me excited about writing the next
chapter.

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How have you planned out the story then?

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You, you had talked about increasing complexity
and I think that's just the

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nature of storytelling. You know, as you bring new
characters in, the story becomes more

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complex. And, uh, that's one of the challenges I
need to face, uh,

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moving forward is how do I

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not make it so complex that we lose track of
everything?

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You know, each chapter is gonna be following,
uh...

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each episode is gonna be following someone along
as they continue their journey.

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But if we have 10 people on 10 different journeys,
uh, you'll get tired pretty quickly.

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So, um, the challenge for me is that it will
become complex, just basically the nature

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of the storytelling by adding characters and with
different, uh, goals.

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You're sending Mela off on her mission to Harvest
House and then she gets moved in a different

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direction, that makes it complex. Having Raylan go
to

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Goutland and meet with the, uh, with the
Outlanders, uh, now they're

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part of the story, that makes it more complex.

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So it, it's actually something I have to be
careful about because the complexity isn't

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something you build, it's something you have to
kind of contain, if that makes sense.

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You mentioned Dickens. Were there any other
influences on the

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Thieves Guild?

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Yeah, uh, Dickens for sure. Um, also the pulp
writers. I love A. C.

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Rice Burroughs and, and Conan, and, and I just
read Zorro by Johnston

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McCulley. And I love how they, they have a real
sense of narrative.

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You know, you may criticize their writing and
their prose, and, and obviously they're writing in
an era

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where, uh, you know, men were men and women were
there to, to look pretty.

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It was very kind of sad in all of those aspects.

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But fundamentally, as narrative writers, they're
very strong.

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They know how to end a chapter with a, uh, a kind
of forward momentum, and there's a

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lot to learn by reading them. So those were all
influences.

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Uh, I think for the Thieves Guild, specifically
the,

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the, the kind of, uh...

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I'm trying to think what influenced me in terms of
like the social

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stratification

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and the nature of,

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uh, of having guilds.

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Uh, I can't really remember something that I've
read that influenced it, although I'm sure that,

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I mean, I've read so much in my life that there's,
there's a bunch that, uh, if you were to like

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say to me later, "Oh, yeah, that reminds me of
this book," I'd be like, "Oh, yeah, actually I
read that

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when I was 15. That's, that probably is an
influence." So hard to say, hard to say.

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But, um, the structure of it in terms of like it
being a serial kind

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of picaresque type of thing where you just go on
the journey and follow people where they go, and
you end

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each chapter, uh, it's gonna be Dickens and, uh,
and the pulp writers from the, uh,

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from the '20s and '30s.

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Do you have a favorite character?

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Oh, man, that's another good question. Um, not
really.

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I kinda love them all. I mean, that's, I guess as
a writer you, they, they talk about your

213
00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:58,479
darlings and, and I kinda love all the characters.

214
00:13:58,719 --> 00:14:02,999
I'll tell you what, I, what I really do have a
favorite are favorite

215
00:14:03,139 --> 00:14:07,719
scenes. You, you want every, you want every scene
to be amazing, but obviously that's impossible.

216
00:14:07,719 --> 00:14:11,319
So sometimes as you go along, there's scenes that
just kinda stand out to you.

217
00:14:12,219 --> 00:14:16,799
And, uh, a good example would be, uh, when, uh,
when Raylan meets

218
00:14:16,899 --> 00:14:21,619
Mayla for the first time, and she's just
constantly insulting him as they're moving along,

219
00:14:21,679 --> 00:14:24,139
and, and he's like getting more and more
frustrated.

220
00:14:25,019 --> 00:14:28,199
And he's like, "Hey, I was just made the guild
master and you're insulting me."

221
00:14:28,859 --> 00:14:29,459
And, um,

222
00:14:30,359 --> 00:14:32,299
and I love that whole kind of exchange.

223
00:14:32,299 --> 00:14:37,219
It, it shows her character so well, and, uh, uh,
her kind of like,

224
00:14:38,639 --> 00:14:43,339
you know, uh, anti-uh, establishment character.
Perfect for a thief, by the way.

225
00:14:43,819 --> 00:14:47,739
And, and Raylan's kind of in like, "I can't make
sense of this.

226
00:14:47,739 --> 00:14:52,679
What is going on?" Which, which kind of is a
perfect, uh, illustration of his character as he's
thrust

227
00:14:52,719 --> 00:14:56,759
into this role. So that was a, that was a scene
that I, that I really enjoyed.

228
00:14:57,219 --> 00:15:02,039
So no, no real favorite characters, but favorite
scenes, if that makes

229
00:15:02,059 --> 00:15:02,359
sense.

230
00:15:02,359 --> 00:15:06,099
It does, but I'm not sure I believe you.

231
00:15:06,099 --> 00:15:08,099
(laughs) Fair enough.

232
00:15:08,099 --> 00:15:13,019
The main setting is a city called Ness where the
social

233
00:15:13,099 --> 00:15:17,639
stratification is all based on guilds and each
guild has a color.

234
00:15:18,079 --> 00:15:22,399
I always picture the city as this patchwork of
colors moving around.

235
00:15:22,859 --> 00:15:24,619
Is that how you pictured it?

236
00:15:24,659 --> 00:15:29,359
You know, when I designed the idea in my head of
like colors being a

237
00:15:29,439 --> 00:15:34,059
guild, I had no visual representation, believe it
or not, in my

238
00:15:34,079 --> 00:15:38,919
mind. It was only later as I was kind of thinking
of, uh, o- of what the city

239
00:15:38,919 --> 00:15:43,799
would look like, as you just did, that I realized
that it would be like this rainbow of colors

240
00:15:43,799 --> 00:15:48,759
swirling around and you would have a blue quarter
and a red quarter and a, and a, and a yellow
quarter.

241
00:15:49,319 --> 00:15:51,599
And, uh, it's funny. I named the, uh,

242
00:15:52,419 --> 00:15:57,139
the sections of the city, you know, you got the
lower quarter, the upper quarter, and you got the
golden

243
00:15:57,139 --> 00:16:00,399
triangle, and, and all of these various pieces,
all on like

244
00:16:01,079 --> 00:16:01,839
physical

245
00:16:02,679 --> 00:16:07,319
kind of pla- like descriptions. Like the lower
quarter is down the slope from the

246
00:16:07,339 --> 00:16:10,059
mountain and it's one quarter of the city for the
most part.

247
00:16:10,579 --> 00:16:14,779
And, uh, you know, the ash fields are fields of
ash. So it was very literal in that.

248
00:16:15,679 --> 00:16:20,459
But in hindsight, I kinda like, kinda what you're,
you're, you're getting at or at least

249
00:16:20,539 --> 00:16:25,019
referencing, is the idea of, uh, uh, the, the city
separated into colors.

250
00:16:25,019 --> 00:16:27,939
I love the idea of the red district and the blue
district.

251
00:16:28,479 --> 00:16:30,759
But, alas, that's not what they're named.

252
00:16:30,879 --> 00:16:34,499
Um, but to your point, they are visually,

253
00:16:35,119 --> 00:16:39,919
uh, gonna be seen like that. And, and as I picture
the city, I do kind of picture this,

254
00:16:39,959 --> 00:16:40,139
uh,

255
00:16:40,779 --> 00:16:45,099
this swirling mass of color and, and, and sections
where some colors

256
00:16:45,739 --> 00:16:50,239
dominate and others don't. I, I kinda like that
image even if it's,

257
00:16:51,059 --> 00:16:55,919
e- even if it, uh, seems unrealistic that, you
know, people would be slavishly,

258
00:16:55,919 --> 00:16:56,159
uh,

259
00:16:56,799 --> 00:16:57,119
uh,

260
00:16:57,899 --> 00:17:02,879
wearing one color. I don't think it's that
unrealistic, by the way, in term- in terms of
like, uh, cultural

261
00:17:03,519 --> 00:17:04,559
possibilities. But

262
00:17:05,179 --> 00:17:07,919
I, I, I love how it looks, so thank you for that
question.

263
00:17:07,959 --> 00:17:12,479
I'm fascinated in how you mentioned writing the
whole

264
00:17:12,579 --> 00:17:13,859
story on the fly.

265
00:17:14,479 --> 00:17:19,339
In an early episode, we see some books in Pietro's
living quarters as

266
00:17:19,419 --> 00:17:24,179
background description. Those books become very
important later in the

267
00:17:24,219 --> 00:17:26,159
story. Did you plan that?

268
00:17:26,159 --> 00:17:27,499
(laughs)

269
00:17:28,199 --> 00:17:29,099
You know, uh,

270
00:17:29,879 --> 00:17:34,579
Bob Ross talked about, uh, happy accidents, and
they don't only occur in

271
00:17:34,659 --> 00:17:35,619
painting. Um,

272
00:17:36,339 --> 00:17:41,299
you know, in fact, that's a really, uh, core way
of how I'm writing this and how I write a lot of

273
00:17:41,299 --> 00:17:46,039
things. I call them seeds. Basically what you do
is i- when you're writing something,

274
00:17:46,959 --> 00:17:49,219
you can, uh, c- add something, uh,

275
00:17:49,899 --> 00:17:50,879
uh, interesting

276
00:17:51,559 --> 00:17:53,219
that's part of the scenery,

277
00:17:53,839 --> 00:17:57,579
and you do it there with the idea of it's
interesting in and of itself, it's there.

278
00:17:57,579 --> 00:18:01,419
It could be a painting on the wall. It could be
books on a bookshelf, like you mentioned, in terms
of

279
00:18:01,439 --> 00:18:06,299
Pietro's, uh, uh, quarters. Um, but they're there
to kind of

280
00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:09,139
like make it seem more interesting than just a
bare wall.

281
00:18:09,659 --> 00:18:12,129
But all of those interesting things......

282
00:18:12,129 --> 00:18:16,729
can, you can, you can go back and look at them and
use them later, and that's what I did with

283
00:18:16,769 --> 00:18:18,489
Pietro's books. That was not planned.

284
00:18:19,069 --> 00:18:22,149
Um, I love the idea of this hidden history.

285
00:18:22,269 --> 00:18:26,830
And again, that came on the fly to me well into
writing this that there would be, like, this
hidden history of

286
00:18:26,869 --> 00:18:27,269
Ness.

287
00:18:27,950 --> 00:18:32,130
And, uh, I, I was struggling to come up with,
like, why does a thieves' guild even exist?

288
00:18:32,130 --> 00:18:34,310
It just kinda, sounds kinda silly, right?

289
00:18:34,950 --> 00:18:35,429
Uh,

290
00:18:36,249 --> 00:18:40,329
you know, uh, in terms of, like, being part of the
social structure.

291
00:18:40,469 --> 00:18:41,109
Like, the whole

292
00:18:42,030 --> 00:18:46,009
f- opening few chapters where the thieves' guild
makes a difference in terms of the ruling

293
00:18:47,009 --> 00:18:51,890
decisions of the city makes no sense, so I kind of
was like, "Well, did I write myself into a corner
here?"

294
00:18:52,249 --> 00:18:57,169
So, what I did was I just went back and, uh, and,
and, and kind of said, "How can I make this make
sense?"

295
00:18:57,569 --> 00:19:00,349
And as I, as I came up with the idea of this
hidden history,

296
00:19:00,989 --> 00:19:02,649
um, s- something hidden

297
00:19:03,309 --> 00:19:07,829
needs n- you know, needs to be hidden. You can't
have a recorded history of it or something like
that.

298
00:19:07,909 --> 00:19:12,769
But then I was like, "How do you expose it, then?"
So, these are the kind of things writers go

299
00:19:12,789 --> 00:19:17,549
through in your, in your head. I don't know if
people necessarily care who are podcast listeners,
but you

300
00:19:17,549 --> 00:19:18,349
think about,

301
00:19:19,129 --> 00:19:21,729
like, like, the challenges that you create.

302
00:19:21,729 --> 00:19:25,669
I want to get to this point, but to get there,
it's unrealistic. How can I make it realistic?

303
00:19:25,689 --> 00:19:27,449
So, these are kind of the challenges that you go
through.

304
00:19:27,909 --> 00:19:32,869
In this case, uh, I put a library in the, uh, the
tower, but

305
00:19:32,889 --> 00:19:37,229
I wanted it to be incomplete because that would
fuel further kind of,

306
00:19:37,809 --> 00:19:41,189
you know, uh, tension and, and momentum.

307
00:19:41,689 --> 00:19:43,189
So, where could the rest of the book slide?

308
00:19:43,189 --> 00:19:47,529
Well, I thought, there's a library that's
mentioned that's in, in the upper triangle where
the rich people

309
00:19:47,609 --> 00:19:52,569
live, and I thought, "It could be there. It could
be in a room there." Um, but then it hit me.

310
00:19:52,669 --> 00:19:57,589
Oh my gosh, I mentioned that there were books in
Pietro's office, and, and it was the happiest of

311
00:19:57,589 --> 00:20:02,209
accidents. We've got Pietro, the Guildmaster
thief, living

312
00:20:02,509 --> 00:20:04,609
under the tower of the, of the merchants.

313
00:20:04,929 --> 00:20:09,729
He's got a huge bookshelf full of books no one
reads, no one cares about his books, and he's

314
00:20:09,769 --> 00:20:11,529
guarding the history of the guild.

315
00:20:12,169 --> 00:20:16,509
I, I, you know, I couldn't have m- planned it
better and it wasn't planned at all.

316
00:20:16,769 --> 00:20:18,549
I, I know that sounds crazy, but it wasn't.

317
00:20:19,329 --> 00:20:21,669
So, you're not sure where things are going?

318
00:20:21,669 --> 00:20:25,669
Uh, I, I, like I said, I know it sounds crazy.

319
00:20:26,089 --> 00:20:27,429
George, you're gonna have to believe me.

320
00:20:27,989 --> 00:20:31,349
I, I do not have a future planned on where this is
going.

321
00:20:31,829 --> 00:20:36,389
At this point in time, 'cause we, uh, we now have
Mayla and, uh, Darla

322
00:20:36,689 --> 00:20:38,609
fighting their way back to Ness somehow.

323
00:20:39,029 --> 00:20:42,889
We've got the, uh, outlanders who are, are
creating a distraction.

324
00:20:42,889 --> 00:20:44,469
We've got a whole bunch of things going on.

325
00:20:45,189 --> 00:20:45,549
Um,

326
00:20:46,169 --> 00:20:47,189
where is that gonna go?

327
00:20:48,189 --> 00:20:52,889
I am, uh, I'm not sure, and I think that's part of
what's gonna be exciting

328
00:20:52,909 --> 00:20:57,469
about the, uh, the next 100 episodes of, uh, of
the podcast

329
00:20:57,709 --> 00:21:01,809
is, uh, we will all be surprised and hopefully
pleasantly so.

330
00:21:01,809 --> 00:21:04,209
Do you have an ending in mind?

331
00:21:04,209 --> 00:21:08,769
That's a fair question. I, I do think, m-

332
00:21:09,349 --> 00:21:13,929
let me put it this way. I usually have a beginning
and an end in mind when I write a book.

333
00:21:14,089 --> 00:21:18,229
The middle is where, you know, creativity and all
of the fun happens for the most part.

334
00:21:19,169 --> 00:21:22,749
So, having an ending gives me a, a place on where
to go.

335
00:21:23,369 --> 00:21:24,489
In this case however,

336
00:21:25,229 --> 00:21:25,589
um,

337
00:21:26,509 --> 00:21:30,369
this series is personal. It's, it's my

338
00:21:31,049 --> 00:21:35,529
way of creating the books that I read when I was
14 and

339
00:21:35,589 --> 00:21:40,289
15. It's me writing out my version o- uh, my
contemporary

340
00:21:40,369 --> 00:21:44,929
version of Conan or, you know, The Land That Time
Forgot or The Princess of

341
00:21:44,989 --> 00:21:49,909
Mars. All of those books just, I consumed them
when I was 14, and I

342
00:21:49,969 --> 00:21:51,109
never wanted them to end.

343
00:21:51,749 --> 00:21:54,969
And this is me writing that book that's never
gonna end.

344
00:21:55,109 --> 00:22:00,029
Um, you know, I can't say it won't end, but at
this point in time, what I really wanna

345
00:22:00,029 --> 00:22:03,129
do in my plan is to have these characters...

346
00:22:03,129 --> 00:22:07,089
And again, I mentioned earlier that you have to be
careful not making too many characters, everybody
loses

347
00:22:07,089 --> 00:22:07,889
the thread,

348
00:22:08,489 --> 00:22:10,409
but have characters that pick up the torch.

349
00:22:11,089 --> 00:22:15,809
You know, I could see at some point Ness become
stabilized and maybe there's a

350
00:22:15,869 --> 00:22:18,709
leader and, and the focus isn't on

351
00:22:19,909 --> 00:22:24,829
Raylan anymore. Even though the, the, the, uh,
he's the Guildmaster thief and the, the,

352
00:22:24,889 --> 00:22:26,289
the series is called The Thieves' Guild,

353
00:22:27,589 --> 00:22:31,789
maybe the thieves become supporting characters to
someone else and they carry the torch.

354
00:22:32,169 --> 00:22:32,569
Maybe,

355
00:22:33,449 --> 00:22:36,829
maybe it goes with Mayla and Darla and we discover
the land.

356
00:22:36,989 --> 00:22:39,609
They're sent on a mission to discover what's on
the other side of the mountain,

357
00:22:40,409 --> 00:22:44,109
or they're sent on a mission to find the ocean
that's past Gautland.

358
00:22:44,689 --> 00:22:49,669
Uh, all of these things, uh, are, are, have so
much potential around them, I just can't

359
00:22:49,729 --> 00:22:50,669
foresee an ending.

360
00:22:51,429 --> 00:22:53,089
Um, I don't know. Maybe a meteor

361
00:22:53,789 --> 00:22:55,729
hits and the dinosaurs take over.

362
00:22:55,809 --> 00:22:59,589
Do you worry that people will get tired of the
story?

363
00:22:59,609 --> 00:23:04,489
Wow. Uh, you know, that's, that's, that is a
concern,

364
00:23:04,709 --> 00:23:09,329
and that's one of the reasons I try to weave in
new, new storylines or

365
00:23:09,489 --> 00:23:11,149
subplots and things like that.

366
00:23:11,809 --> 00:23:16,389
So, if you're tired of Raylan fighting against The
Man, you have Mayla and Darla

367
00:23:16,669 --> 00:23:19,149
discovering the Magic Guild. If you're

368
00:23:19,849 --> 00:23:24,409
really not too keen on what's happening with Rafe
up in the, uh,

369
00:23:24,489 --> 00:23:28,109
tower, you've got, uh, Rogers trying to rally the
Harvest Guild.

370
00:23:28,829 --> 00:23:33,569
So, um, I try to make sure that it's not a tiring
read, that

371
00:23:33,689 --> 00:23:37,489
everything is new and every chapter ends with some
kind of element of tension to it.

372
00:23:38,149 --> 00:23:40,869
But it is a concern. I do worry that people get
tired of it.

373
00:23:41,129 --> 00:23:45,609
I mean, there have been books that have gone on
for dozens and

374
00:23:45,709 --> 00:23:48,789
dozens and dozens of books, and I'm not even close
to that yet.

375
00:23:49,509 --> 00:23:53,529
Uh, so I do know that it can be done, um, and I'm
hoping that I can do it.

376
00:23:54,629 --> 00:23:59,529
Let's talk about the podcast. There are no credits
or lengthy intros

377
00:23:59,649 --> 00:24:00,709
or outros.

378
00:24:01,329 --> 00:24:02,029
Why is that?

379
00:24:02,049 --> 00:24:06,929
Well, I'm, I'm sorry I don't highlight you, George
(laughs) . That was all by design.

380
00:24:07,569 --> 00:24:12,309
One of the things that I've been annoyed with when
I listen to podcasts are

381
00:24:12,329 --> 00:24:13,749
these interminable

382
00:24:14,409 --> 00:24:18,049
intros that go on for two minutes and, um,

383
00:24:18,929 --> 00:24:23,789
the, uh, you know, even songs, like intro scores
that are, are

384
00:24:23,849 --> 00:24:27,051
f-You know, a minute long. When I was, when I was

385
00:24:27,811 --> 00:24:32,071
getting the, the intro music, which I love by the
way, for the, the

386
00:24:32,111 --> 00:24:36,751
podcast, the, the one guideline I gave was has to
be under 30 seconds.

387
00:24:37,031 --> 00:24:37,671
So, uh,

388
00:24:38,431 --> 00:24:39,371
the goal was

389
00:24:40,412 --> 00:24:45,031
when I, when I approached it was I have 30
seconds, less than 30 seconds of

390
00:24:45,071 --> 00:24:49,371
music, and we're in the story by the time the
music ends. So, I had 30 seconds.

391
00:24:50,011 --> 00:24:51,552
30 seconds is enough to do,

392
00:24:52,171 --> 00:24:53,871
you know, the name of the podcast,

393
00:24:54,531 --> 00:24:57,171
uh, the title of the, uh,

394
00:24:57,812 --> 00:25:01,171
uh, episode, the number of the episode,

395
00:25:01,792 --> 00:25:05,551
um, the, the... my name, you know, at least give
myself credit.

396
00:25:05,551 --> 00:25:09,092
Sorry, George, not you, but me. And, uh, and that
was it.

397
00:25:09,391 --> 00:25:12,591
So, you know, as you're well aware, as I talked to
all of the...

398
00:25:12,591 --> 00:25:15,331
or as I kind of crafted all of the pieces
together,

399
00:25:16,051 --> 00:25:20,751
and, uh, you know, from the end music to the intro
music to, uh, all of the

400
00:25:20,792 --> 00:25:25,411
voices and, and, and things like that, I decided
to just focus on the

401
00:25:25,451 --> 00:25:30,111
story. So, um, there's that. It's, uh, it's by...

402
00:25:30,111 --> 00:25:31,451
entirely by design.

403
00:25:31,451 --> 00:25:36,151
I don't mind actually. I like your approach of
diving

404
00:25:36,151 --> 00:25:37,671
directly into the story.

405
00:25:37,691 --> 00:25:42,351
Well, thanks, George. I'm, I, uh, I, I, I think it
works.

406
00:25:43,051 --> 00:25:44,551
Uh, I'll, I'll just say that.

407
00:25:44,571 --> 00:25:48,371
The length of the episodes are usually around 10
minutes.

408
00:25:48,931 --> 00:25:50,011
Did you plan that?

409
00:25:50,811 --> 00:25:52,991
That was actually another happy accident.

410
00:25:53,111 --> 00:25:57,411
Each, uh, episode was gonna be a chapter in an
already written book series.

411
00:25:57,551 --> 00:26:02,371
Now, we're moving beyond that now, but, uh, it's
gonna continue, and each chapter

412
00:26:02,411 --> 00:26:04,591
just happened to be around 10 to 15 minutes.

413
00:26:05,291 --> 00:26:10,071
In hindsight, again, thank you, Bob Ross. I'm
talking about these happy accidents.

414
00:26:10,191 --> 00:26:13,631
I love the length of the episodes. They're short.

415
00:26:14,251 --> 00:26:17,691
They proje- project story and character,

416
00:26:18,651 --> 00:26:23,451
and they're easy to consume, uh, quickly if you're
on your way to work or something like

417
00:26:23,491 --> 00:26:27,451
that. They're not hour-long narratives and, and
dramas and things like that.

418
00:26:27,991 --> 00:26:32,731
Uh, they're, they're meant to be serials, like,
like the old 1800s, uh,

419
00:26:33,251 --> 00:26:37,951
magazines where Dickens and Wilkie Collins were
published, and, and people would read them

420
00:26:38,171 --> 00:26:43,111
in the carriage, or they would read them, uh, at
home before they went to bed, and then they would
wait for

421
00:26:43,131 --> 00:26:46,811
the next episode. So, uh, I kind of like it.
Wasn't by design.

422
00:26:47,411 --> 00:26:51,691
Uh, it was a happy accident. But, uh, again, I, I
feel like I've had a lot of these on this, and I'm
very

423
00:26:51,711 --> 00:26:52,151
grateful.

424
00:26:52,151 --> 00:26:57,051
Unlike a lot of podcasts, you produce two episodes
a week.

425
00:26:57,391 --> 00:26:58,911
How do you make that work?

426
00:26:58,931 --> 00:27:02,371
Well, I have an efficient production, so that
helps.

427
00:27:02,391 --> 00:27:07,071
But, but more than anything, it's the fact that I
already had material written going back

428
00:27:07,091 --> 00:27:09,251
100, you know, basically 99 episodes.

429
00:27:09,251 --> 00:27:14,071
So, when you have something written, it makes it a
lot easier to get it out because it's already
produced and

430
00:27:14,091 --> 00:27:15,331
all you need to do is, uh,

431
00:27:16,071 --> 00:27:17,891
uh, have all the rest of the stuff added in.

432
00:27:17,911 --> 00:27:22,471
Not that it's easy, but it, it's, it's not as
time-consuming as, as literally writing

433
00:27:23,271 --> 00:27:27,871
all of that. Uh, and that's why, uh, announcement
number one for

434
00:27:27,951 --> 00:27:30,371
everybody, starting with episode...

435
00:27:30,371 --> 00:27:34,731
uh, starting next week, we're gonna be moving to
one episode a week, and the reason is simple.

436
00:27:35,211 --> 00:27:39,311
I'm gonna be writing the, the works instead of,
uh, using previously written stuff.

437
00:27:39,311 --> 00:27:41,291
Now, I'm very excited about that because,

438
00:27:41,931 --> 00:27:42,271
um,

439
00:27:43,291 --> 00:27:46,171
I, I will be able to experience the story as it
goes along.

440
00:27:46,171 --> 00:27:50,151
I'll be able to read your feedback, and, uh, and
I'm not so, uh...

441
00:27:50,471 --> 00:27:55,431
uh, I'm not so enamored with my own genius that I
wouldn't take your ideas if you wanted to, like,
toss

442
00:27:55,431 --> 00:28:00,271
them in comments and say, "Man, I wish it went
this way." Can't say I would take those ideas, but
I

443
00:28:00,351 --> 00:28:05,171
love how writing and reading is a collaborative
experience, so we're gonna go to one episode a
week, uh,

444
00:28:05,791 --> 00:28:06,951
starting, uh, next week.

445
00:28:06,951 --> 00:28:10,411
So, one episode a week starting next episode.

446
00:28:11,111 --> 00:28:15,751
If my math is correct, it sounds like it will be
two years before we get to

447
00:28:15,791 --> 00:28:17,151
episode 200.

448
00:28:17,151 --> 00:28:22,031
Well, now that you put it that way, George, I, I
wanna do two episodes a week 'cause I want it to
come

449
00:28:22,151 --> 00:28:22,771
faster

450
00:28:23,451 --> 00:28:24,751
(laughs) . But, alas,

451
00:28:25,471 --> 00:28:29,691
I, I can only write so fast. So, uh, yeah, thanks
for bringing me down, George.

452
00:28:30,171 --> 00:28:30,491
Hey,

453
00:28:31,151 --> 00:28:34,771
I'm not the one only writing one episode a week.

454
00:28:36,071 --> 00:28:40,411
Do you have anything special planned as part of
this 100th episode?

455
00:28:40,411 --> 00:28:45,331
Yes, actually. We are going to be giving away

456
00:28:45,811 --> 00:28:50,711
a paperback version of the first two books of The
Thieves Guild that the

457
00:28:50,791 --> 00:28:55,651
podcast has been based on, these first 99
episodes, and, uh, they

458
00:28:55,651 --> 00:28:58,951
will be both signed by me and, uh, sent off to
you.

459
00:28:59,091 --> 00:29:03,511
Um, there will be a sign-up form in the
description if you want to, uh,

460
00:29:04,151 --> 00:29:06,631
have a chance to win the, uh, the paperbacks.

461
00:29:07,091 --> 00:29:07,831
And, uh,

462
00:29:08,971 --> 00:29:13,771
the... I will, uh, be open to mailing them
internationally as well, so this is not limited

463
00:29:13,791 --> 00:29:15,171
to just the United States.

464
00:29:16,431 --> 00:29:17,771
Am I eligible?

465
00:29:18,591 --> 00:29:20,591
Uh, no, George, you are not.

466
00:29:21,531 --> 00:29:25,571
Oh, well. For those listening, check out the
description for the link.

467
00:29:25,831 --> 00:29:27,451
Anything else before we go?

468
00:29:28,151 --> 00:29:31,991
Actually, I do have a surprise announcement.

469
00:29:31,991 --> 00:29:36,751
A surprise announcement. Now, that's what I was

470
00:29:36,791 --> 00:29:38,771
hoping to hear. What is it?

471
00:29:38,771 --> 00:29:41,471
I actually have a

472
00:29:42,531 --> 00:29:46,491
young adult series called, uh, Tommy Black. It's
about...

473
00:29:46,611 --> 00:29:51,211
starts with Tommy Black and the Staff of Light,
which was, uh, fairly successful, uh,

474
00:29:51,451 --> 00:29:55,411
about, uh, 10 years ago or so. And, uh,

475
00:29:56,351 --> 00:29:58,411
the, the, uh, first book is Tommy Black and the
Staff of Light.

476
00:29:58,411 --> 00:30:03,231
The second is, uh, Tommy Black and the Coat of
Invincibility, and there's a third book that

477
00:30:03,331 --> 00:30:07,411
hasn't been written yet. And I decided I'm gonna
do the same thing with Tommy Black

478
00:30:08,051 --> 00:30:09,931
that I've done for The Thieves Guild.

479
00:30:09,991 --> 00:30:13,791
I am going to produce it as a podcast. So, uh,

480
00:30:14,611 --> 00:30:19,531
uh, I still have to get it in place. It's, uh, you
can s- you know, we'll, we'll announce it

481
00:30:19,611 --> 00:30:24,041
here, um...But, uh, it's probably gonna be in
about two months,

482
00:30:24,701 --> 00:30:27,921
and I haven't decided whether it's gonna be a full
cast or a single narrator.

483
00:30:27,921 --> 00:30:32,621
I kind of like the idea of a single narrator, and,
uh, and George, you can thank

484
00:30:32,662 --> 00:30:35,661
yourself for that because, uh, I really do love
your narration.

485
00:30:35,822 --> 00:30:40,681
So, um, but it might be full cast too. There's,
there's something interesting about

486
00:30:40,821 --> 00:30:44,901
having a full cast that, that I really like, but,
uh, we will find out.

487
00:30:44,941 --> 00:30:48,021
So, uh, probably in, let's say,

488
00:30:48,841 --> 00:30:53,661
September. It looks like it's gonna be September,
we'll be launching the Tommy Black

489
00:30:53,742 --> 00:30:57,202
series, uh, podcast. Still haven't come up with a
name yet.

490
00:30:57,222 --> 00:30:59,021
I don't think it's gonna be the Tommy Black
Series.

491
00:30:59,021 --> 00:31:03,882
It's gonna be something more, uh, (laughs)
evocative, but, uh, that's coming, uh, in two

492
00:31:03,941 --> 00:31:06,741
months. So, that's an exciting announcement, or at
least I hope you think it's exciting.

493
00:31:06,741 --> 00:31:10,881
That's wonderful. Can I narrate that one too?

494
00:31:11,241 --> 00:31:15,181
Oh, yeah. I just say something nice about you, and
now I have to say something mean.

495
00:31:15,321 --> 00:31:18,101
No, uh, unfortunately George, you're not gonna n-
narrate this one.

496
00:31:18,101 --> 00:31:22,981
I have to, uh, find a, uh, American-voiced n-
narrator.

497
00:31:23,081 --> 00:31:27,861
This is set in America. Well, actually, it's set
all over the

498
00:31:27,901 --> 00:31:31,061
place, but the, uh, the main characters are from
America.

499
00:31:31,061 --> 00:31:34,321
Can you give us some more details about Tommy
Black?

500
00:31:34,321 --> 00:31:39,201
Sure. It's set in a world... Uh, it's set in 1938
before World War

501
00:31:39,301 --> 00:31:43,941
II, and magic has been part of the world for so
long, but as technology is coming

502
00:31:43,961 --> 00:31:48,181
along, has come along, it is replacing magic. So,
magic is dying out.

503
00:31:48,181 --> 00:31:52,721
It's become kind of like this carnival act type of
thing, and there used to be

504
00:31:53,221 --> 00:31:55,141
things called uh, uh,

505
00:31:55,841 --> 00:32:00,801
arch mages. And the arch mages were the super
powerful magicians, but they haven't been seen for

506
00:32:00,821 --> 00:32:05,681
a long time. And there's one who is Tommy's
grandfather, who's retired

507
00:32:05,701 --> 00:32:07,961
and, and lives in, uh, in, uh,

508
00:32:08,701 --> 00:32:13,661
Manhattan and, uh, he, uh, he, he basically is, is

509
00:32:13,661 --> 00:32:16,101
retired and doesn't wanna have anything to do with
anybody else.

510
00:32:16,241 --> 00:32:19,201
And the world is losing magic, and he's a little
bitter about it.

511
00:32:19,741 --> 00:32:21,701
And what happens is, uh,

512
00:32:22,761 --> 00:32:26,821
the, uh... He gets attacked with his, uh, with
his, uh, grandson,

513
00:32:27,461 --> 00:32:29,561
and his grandson is Tommy, and

514
00:32:30,301 --> 00:32:35,221
basically he, uh, he saves Tommy in an attack on a
restaurant, hands Tommy the staff and

515
00:32:35,301 --> 00:32:35,681
says,

516
00:32:36,461 --> 00:32:39,821
you know, "Take this with you and, and, and
essentially hide it.

517
00:32:39,861 --> 00:32:41,021
I'll get back to you later."

518
00:32:41,681 --> 00:32:44,801
So, uh, Tommy leaves, and that begins the, uh,

519
00:32:45,461 --> 00:32:49,301
the, the adventure, and it, it covers so much
history.

520
00:32:49,361 --> 00:32:54,281
It's, uh, it's gonna overlap World War II when the
World War II, uh, is

521
00:32:54,301 --> 00:32:59,181
gonna have magic elements to it. Uh, it has, uh,
lots of cool

522
00:32:59,281 --> 00:33:04,201
stuff. And again, book one and two are written, so
this will go on, uh, at a pretty good clip,

523
00:33:04,681 --> 00:33:06,661
like I did with the, the Thieves Guild.

524
00:33:07,301 --> 00:33:08,821
Uh, and then we'll have fun

525
00:33:09,761 --> 00:33:12,201
with book three. This one will have an ending.

526
00:33:12,401 --> 00:33:17,221
Uh, the Tommy Black Series, uh, podcast will have
an ending, uh, which is after the, the

527
00:33:17,321 --> 00:33:21,861
third book, um, but I'm not sure how long that
will take. Uh, the beauty of a podcast...

528
00:33:21,861 --> 00:33:26,081
And I will be, just like the Thieves Guild,
designing the third book for the podcast, not a
book-book,

529
00:33:26,621 --> 00:33:30,541
uh, is I can make it as long as I like or as short
as I like. So, uh, we shall see.

530
00:33:30,821 --> 00:33:33,341
Um, I'm excited for it. I hope, uh, I hope
everybody likes it.

531
00:33:33,921 --> 00:33:35,141
When does it start?

532
00:33:35,701 --> 00:33:40,581
Geez, George, I said it was gonna be, like,
August, September in, but you, you have to pin me
down, don't

533
00:33:40,621 --> 00:33:45,501
you? All right. I will, uh, I'll go on the record
since, uh, you're being annoying and

534
00:33:45,501 --> 00:33:50,241
making me do so. Uh, it will be September 6th,
will be the first episode

535
00:33:50,301 --> 00:33:54,601
launch of Tommy Black. And, uh, by the way, title
will be changed.

536
00:33:55,161 --> 00:33:59,821
Uh, but, uh, the first book is Tommy Black and the
Staff of Light, and, uh,

537
00:33:59,901 --> 00:34:04,601
chapter one of that book will be the first
episode, which you will, uh, have on September
6th.

538
00:34:05,061 --> 00:34:05,721
So, there you go.

539
00:34:06,361 --> 00:34:09,281
Thanks for making this podcast a reality, Jake.

540
00:34:09,321 --> 00:34:13,741
Uh, I'm happy to do so. I love, I love writing,
and I love telling stories.

541
00:34:13,761 --> 00:34:14,621
So, this is more,

542
00:34:15,261 --> 00:34:17,961
you know, makes me happier, and, and if other
people enjoy it,

543
00:34:19,321 --> 00:34:20,981
that's, that's all the best, George.

544
00:34:20,981 --> 00:34:25,801
Where can people find more information about you
and the other things you do?

545
00:34:26,281 --> 00:34:31,121
Uh, where can people find more about me? Uh, the
easiest is just to go to my website, jakekerr.com.

546
00:34:31,141 --> 00:34:35,801
So, if you go to J-A-K-E K-E-R-R dot com, you can
find, uh, more

547
00:34:35,881 --> 00:34:38,061
information about me. I still write short stories.

548
00:34:38,061 --> 00:34:42,301
You'll find them, uh, I have one coming up in
Lightspeed Magazine, in fact. It's a fantasy
story.

549
00:34:42,881 --> 00:34:47,501
Um, and, uh, you'll find, uh, news about, uh,
other books I've

550
00:34:47,501 --> 00:34:48,641
written. I have a, uh,

551
00:34:49,421 --> 00:34:49,801
kind of a

552
00:34:50,421 --> 00:34:53,761
cyberpunk thriller called Thursday that's
available and, um,

553
00:34:54,601 --> 00:34:58,581
uh, assorted other things. So, you can find me on,
uh,

554
00:34:59,561 --> 00:35:04,461
on, uh, on my website. I'm also on Blue Sky, if
you wanna track me down there.

555
00:35:04,681 --> 00:35:06,081
It's, uh, Jake,

556
00:35:07,021 --> 00:35:10,201
uh, @jake.kerr.social.

557
00:35:10,821 --> 00:35:15,421
So, uh, jake.kerr.social is my handle on Blue Sky
if you wanna follow me there.

558
00:35:16,181 --> 00:35:17,801
Um, that's about it.

559
00:35:17,941 --> 00:35:22,821
And on that note, I'm looking forward to narrating
next week's episode

560
00:35:23,141 --> 00:35:25,761
and a long future for the Thieves Guild.

561
00:35:26,541 --> 00:35:28,521
Me too, George. Me too.

562
00:35:32,761 --> 00:35:58,161
(upbeat music plays)